Wow I see ole Joran confessed again. How many times has he confessed now? How many times will it take before they finally arrest him?
Natalee Holloway Snorted Coke, Fell to Death, Suspect Says
Joran van der Sloots alleged new confession asserts graphic details of the night she died
By CLEOPATRA ANDREADIS and CHRISTINE BROUWER
Feb. 26, 2010—
New details in the alleged confession from Joran van der Sloot, the prime suspect in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, give an emotional and descriptive account of what he says were Holloways last moments that night she died.
The Telegraaf reported that they viewed the videotaped conversation, which lasted two and a half hours, yesterday of van der Sloots most recent interview with RTL 5, a Dutch television station. This latest alleged confession was shot at a hotel in Dusseldorf, Germany. A full interview is expected to air this Sunday on the network.
According to the Dutch tabloid, van der Sloot reveals the surname of his 20-year-old accomplice, A., and describes in detail how they allegedly brought Holloway to a friend's house where he says they drank whiskey and used cocaine.
"A. had just put on the music. And eh, they both had just taken some coke." Van der Sloot claims Holloway and A. snorted the drugs before Holloway decided to climb up onto the rim of the balcony to dance. "I think she was pretty drunk," van der Sloot added, "so she was just kind of dancing half a striptease, just like she was doing on stage at Carlos & Charlies."
The Dutch tabloid noted van der Sloot becoming more emotional as he described in detail what he says happened next.
"Then I walked over to her to dance with her a little.... And eh, I grabbed her by the hips. When I let go, she fell from the balcony..."
"We looked down and saw her lying there. Yes, there was blood. I think she fell on the ground with her head first." Van der Sloot continued to say that they both ran the steps to Natalee. "Her chin was to one side and I turned it the other way. There was blood on the ground too. There was no life."
The Justice Department in Aruba is quick to dismiss the details of this latest alleged confession, telling ABC News that "We have been aware of the existence of this interview since August of last year. We investigated the claims made. The Aruban police investigated, with help from specialists with the Dutch police.
Spokeswoman for the Aruban Justice Department, Ann Angela continued to say that their "conclusion was that the statements made by Joran van der Sloot are entirely unbelievable."
Chief Prosecutor in Aruba, Peter Blanken told ABC News, "It's a story that in and of itself does fit in terms of timing. But all the other things that could be investigated, and that means the story about the witnesses [&], the house, the height of the balcony, all those types of things don't add up in Joran van der Sloot's statement."
This alleged confession comes almost two years after undercover tapes were released by Dutch crime reporter Peter R. de Vries, in which van der Sloot appears to admit he was present when Holloway died and that he helped dump her body in the ocean. De Vries, who sat down for an exclusive interview with ABC News' Chris Cuomo back in 2008 after the tapes went public, says he is "totally convinced Joran is telling the truth" on the tape. "Joran is telling the truth about what happened to Natalee," De Vries told Cuomo, adding that "she died in his arms on the beach that night."
The chief prosecutor in the Holloway case, Peter Blanken, told 'De Telegraaf' that the so-called confession in 2008 resulted in a new investigation into the disappearance of Holloway, but eventually concluded without results. "It became clear that this statement is held together by lies and fantasy," Blanken said. "Times are wrong and named witnesses have denied."
Holloway went missing back in May 2005 during a high school graduation trip to Aruba. Her disappearance received international attention.
The Man Who Lured Van der Sloot to Talk
In the ABC interview in 2008 Patrick van der Eem, described in detail how he painstakingly gained the young Dutch suspect's trust, took his suspicions to Holland's leading investigative reporter and began a sting operation that led to van der Sloot's caught-on-camera admissions.
"I am telling you honestly, I know what happened to that girl," van der Sloot told Van der Eem, on the undercover video. He goes on to say that Holloway died in his arms and that he called a friend to dispose of her body.
On the tape, van der Sloot further describes to van der Eem that Holloway suffered a seizure during a romantic encounter between the pair, who had met hours before at a local nightclub.
At another point, he told van der Eem, "I tried to shake her, and I was shaking the b****. I was like, 'What is wrong with you man?' I almost wanted to cry."
Van der Sloot said he feels lucky the police were not able to recover Holloway's body. "I think I am incredibly lucky that she's never been found because if she had been found I would be in deep [excrement]," van der Sloot also said on the tape.
De Vries dismissed van der Sloot's claim that he was lying on the tape or that drugs affected his statement, saying "I don't buy these allegations."
Joran Talks
In an exclusive interview with ABC News' Chris Cuomo in 2006, van der Sloot said he planned to have sex with Holloway when they left a bar together.
"We were planning on going to my house, because she said she wanted to go to my house," he said. "My intention was to take her to the house to have sex with her." But the couple did not end up sleeping together, he told Cuomo. "I asked her if she wanted to have sex, and she was fine with it," he said. "I didn't have a condom with me though in my wallet, and I won't have sex with a girl without a condom."
Holloway, who was visiting Aruba on a school trip, met van der Sloot at a casino the night she disappeared. How they met and what went on between them has been the focus of endless speculation by officials and Holloway's friends and family.
"I sat down there and within five minutes, there was a group of girls from the Mountain Brook school that came up to me and sat down next to me and they wanted to play as well," van der Sloot told Cuomo. "They'd already been drinking that day and had drinks with them. We played blackjack for a while, and I told them whether or not to hit."
'I Didn't Want Anyone to Know'
Van der Sloot admitted in the 2006 interview that he had a reputation in Aruba as a ladies' man, but he said he has been portrayed "unfairly" as a "murderer and a rapist and everything I'm not."
"In Aruba that was part of my lifestyle ... going out, being single and picking up girls," he said. "Going out with them, having a good time and then saying goodbye." Soon after admittedly lying to police about having dropped Holloway off at her hotel, van der Sloot became the main suspect in the case.
Van der Sloot -- along with Deepak Kalpoe and Satish Kalpoe -- were arrested June 9, 2005 on suspicion of involvement in Holloway's disappearance. Van der Sloot admitted that he was with her but denied any wrongdoing at the time. All were released after a court ruled that there wasn't enough evidence to hold them. Van der Sloot said he didn't want to tell the truth because he was scared.
"I didn't want anyone to know," he told Cuomo. "I didn't want anyone to know I left her at the beach."
Shocking news from Aruba. Paulus van der Sloot dies suddenly!
Father of Natalee Holloway suspect dies
11/02/2010
Media on Aruba are reporting that Paul van der Sloot, the father of the main suspect in the Natalee Holloway disappearance case, has died.
Joran van der Sloot's father collapsed on Wednesday evening when playing tennis at the Tierra del Sol estate on the Dutch Caribbean island. Emergency service staff were unable to resuscitate him. Paul van der Sloot was aged 57.
His son Joran is still suspected of involvement in the disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway on Aruba in May 2005. The case was brought back into the limelight when crime reporter Peter R. de Vries secretly filmed Joran van der Sloot claiming that he had dumped Natalee's body in the ocean. The potentially incriminating statement was not accepted as evidence by the court.
Paul van der Sloot, a lawyer who was training as a judge on Aruba, was repeatedly interviewed by the media in connection to his son's alleged involvement in the case. It has never become clear to what extent Mr Van der Sloot knew what Joran's role may have been.
"Overigens wordt de uitzending van zondag wel heel interessant, kan ik nu reeds onthullen. Voor het eerst sinds lange tijd komen we weer eens terug op Joran van der Sloot…. Wat dacht u daarvan?"
English translation:
the broadcast of Sunday will be very interesting, I can now reveal. For the first time in a long time we come back again on Joran van der Sloot .... How about that?
He continues with teasers that this show will be about the interrogations following his van confession. He also mentions Joran's missing shoes. He claims not a day goes by that he is not asked about Joran van der Sloot.
FlusterSunday, December 13, 2009 04:14 PM
So did Peter get bitten in his azz?
DutchladyinUSAThursday, December 17, 2009 10:03 AM
Seems this time Peter struck out trying to milk the Joran money train one more time. He shows footage that one must wonder how he even obtained, he actually managed to get sympathy from some who viewed this for Joran, and he now has to distance himself from that criminal Patrick who he once was a hero to himself and Beth. All this and not a peep out of Joran for a very long time. Appears that Peter had better stop stalking Joran because the longer this goes the more it appears that Peter is obsessed and never investigated this case or showed true facts even from the first TV event back in 2006.
FlusterFriday, December 18, 2009 07:07 PM
Peter is obsessed with all types of criminals; seems they are the only ones he goes after, or stalking as you call it.
I wonder if Gielen will ever want to distance herself from her criminal friend Steve Brown?
I don't understand why it's such a booboo that Peter obtained confidential material and broadcast it; since certain people from Aruba do the same. Some even know before the judge has seen the files, that a suspect will be freed at a certain time. It's no big deal, has been happening for 4 1/2 years constantly.
CDSunday, December 20, 2009 04:22 PM
Ms Gielen is associated with Steve Brown? I was not aware of that and doubt that it is true. She is just someone that searches for the truth in the Holloway case in spite of criticism from some because of who she has interviewed and the opinions that she has formed. She apparently has her reasons and until she is proven wrong or the case is solved in another way who knows if she is right or wrong. Her opinion is as worthy as any other.
Peter uses the most unethical means to put on his show of shows each year to try and refocus everything back on Joran. I think this years was a bit of a snooze based on the ratings. I am surprised things are so corrupt in the Netherlands that he can show such footage. I doubt it gave many of the Dutch people a warm and fuzzy type of feeling.
FlusterMonday, December 21, 2009 03:23 AM
Peter's unethical practices were lauded when he tracked other criminals and he was embraced until some people realized he wasn't making Beth the suspect. That was clear long ago.
Opinions that are formed from blog gossip are worthy? Natalee pregnant? Natalee in Rehab? Sureeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
And why shouldn't Peter focus on Joran? JOran brought it all on himself imo. Peter is doing what he has always done, no more and no less, but now he's on Joran's trail and Joran certainly has done enough to garner the attention.
FlusterMonday, December 21, 2009 01:03 PM
That being said, I am really over the case that has been riddled with incompetance and bull#@*%! since day 1. After all the bull#@*%! that has been presented as truths, I have really had my fill and leave it all with a very bitter and sour taste that will remain. I am a strong believer that those who have done bad will eventually get their dues paid; it always seems to happen that way...whether it be 10 years or 30 years down the road. I have seen it myself. I have patience...I can wait and leave it until one day I will be reminded when fate returns with a verdict.
As for Peter, I'm not either for or against him. He hasn't changed from the Peter of 2005/06; only popular opinion has changed and I'm certain if he would leave Joran and VDS alone forever that people would once again see him as they did before. Seems that won't happen though. Peter hasn't seemed to ever be wrong on his pinpointing criminals. Not my worry tho, be it 5 years or 30...he doesn't let up. Do I care? No!
Adios.
FlusterMonday, December 21, 2009 01:10 PM
One more thought please, and then I'm gone, forever to the real world.
I wouldn't worry so much about Peter as I would for Patrick. Patrick had left his bad life behind for a time but got back into it to deceive Joran. It seems this time he is having a more difficult time shaking the demons that the drugs cause. Some people just get downright happy on drugs but not so Patrick. I wouldn't be worried to be in a room alone with Peter, but Patrick is now a ticking time bomb. I don't wish bad on anyone,
BellaMonday, December 21, 2009 07:29 PM
If Joran is innocent as I believe then he brought nothing on himself. and from what I have heard from my Dutch friends not everyone in Holland every praised Peter, some liked him others hated him for the very reasons I personally find his tactics totally unethical and borderline harassment. And I do not know where you are coming up with these facts that Peter pinpoints criminals with accuracy Who told you that?
You only have posted a couple times here and already you are saying goodbye so many say that over and over but those that say it never do say goodbye, as this case must be an addiction for many.
I do agree about Patrick. He is a total loser. But then again he was Beth's hero. She seems to like that type. Rather scary unpredictable lowlife and I would not want to be on the wrong side of Scarface.
sinterklaasThursday, December 24, 2009 11:34 AM I wouldn't be worried to be in a room alone with Peter, but Patrick is now a ticking time bomb
Red wine splatter versus blood splatter? HO HO HO Patrick's too much of a coward to do himself in and ruin your silk blouse.
Merry Xmas Everyone,
Hugs
Sinterklaas en Zwarte Piet
Abrielle CroesSunday, January 3, 2010 11:03 AM You'd think she'd have a new song and dance in the New Year
57)
CD
Saturday, November 7, 2009 08:14 PM
I see that after 4 plus years Natalee was finally declared officially missing from Alabama.
Wonder what took so long? Does this mean she is not considered deceased but only missing?
DottyMonday, November 9, 2009 10:24 PM
What kind of question is that? A person dead or alive can be missing, not?
I understand it was the FBI who decided that.
flipWednesday, November 11, 2009 09:17 AM
Seems rather odd to do this now after all these years. It almost seems like the return of Jaycee Dugard might have offered new hope. Or maybe they are finally understanding that there is no reason to totally assume the worst here that it might be she could still be alive. I am not looking into anymore sinister reasons like I read some are, but it does seem rather odd that she was never listed there, more than that she is now listed there.
Poentje Castro, in jail along with others for 'fencing' after Claudius Phillips place of residence was missing large screen TV and some laptops, etc.
Poentje??!!! Fencing nets good money doesn't it.
All this brings me back to why Patrick may have "threatened Poentje in the first place after an interview to "catch" Patrick. Does Poentje do extortion also? Sure brings him down alot closer to Patricks stylem imo.
On another note, all those jailed were one on one with police captors. Sounds serious.
DottyTuesday, November 3, 2009 07:46 AM
It doesn't really sound like "fencing", rather blackkmail. Poentje didn't seem to be "selling" anything.
PappyTuesday, November 3, 2009 11:00 AM
Well I admit at the moment things do not look good for Poentje but still it might be good to wait until all the facts surface. There might be a simple innocent explanation for his actions. Ok, yes once again, innocent until proven guilty!
DottyWednesday, November 4, 2009 10:24 AM
Well seems to be according to Poentje's lawyer anyway...that is, a reasonable explanation. It's a dang head banger how the Aruban press got things so confused.
The lawyer in a latest article says that Pontje was helping Clausius get back his laptops. Now why didn't Claudius speak up sooner while the news was being made?
The police called it fencing and after his first hearing with the Judge, he was held over. Poentje had the laptops for 2 weeks apparently. There was mention of blackmail also. There's got to be more to it that Claudius spoke up so late and it's probably something to do with whatever Poentje was looking for and what he has found.
It's ok, I'm not worrying about that as this last charade has really fed me up. IUPG can be stuffed!!!
Is it carnival cops or beach cops again, which is about equal to keystone cops? Don't they communicate? What about the press there? I've never heard anything so screwed up in my life.
Now I do understand better the confusion Natalee's family was hit with.
PappyWednesday, November 4, 2009 02:01 PM
Well gee I don't know, maybe if anyone looks at the cases or the reporting of other cases anywhere in the world it could be exactly the same. There just is no fact checking anymore. It used to be one needed multiple verification of a story before it went into print in any credible newspaper but that is no longer the case. Then again maybe there is more to this story than meets our eyes, or maybe it is all just a bunch of nothing. I do not think it in anyway says anything about the Holloway case or what happened there with the press or the police. To me that is a big leap. Of course if a person wants to look upon Aruba negatively all the time then it is an expected leap.
Pappy
DottyWednesday, November 4, 2009 05:56 PM
I was NOT "all the time" looking at Aruba negatively. My views have been happening over a period of time.More like the last year. Stories are horrendous out of there.
PappyWednesday, November 4, 2009 06:46 PM
Well that is good to hear.
Actually if one wanted to look at crime and were from Alabama perhaps one could start reading the stories from Birmingham. Seems like they have quite a little nasty armpit of the nation going on there:
[money.aol.com]
Oh but I don't suppose a tally has been done in the last 4 1/2 years as to which has been more corrupt or had more incidents of crime.
DottyWednesday, November 4, 2009 10:58 PM
No, I haven't made a tally mainly b/c B'ham to my knowledge hasn't been advertising vacations with fancy slogans of safety. That was an interesting little story there. Research was done, cops got the crook and he is being punished...end of story. Very clear cut. You don't get that from the Caribbean nations. What you get is bizarre stories from the keystone cops to press that used to have a good rep. There's no comparison between the two places and it's not a matter of crime...it's a matter of what is reported a first, second, third, etc time. Stories change drastically and nothing quite so bizarre as the Poentje/Claudius story.
Poentje committing suicide after being caught. That changed. He was a Fence...that changed to blackmail. He had the laptops 2 weeks and had plenty of time to rectify the situation but he didn't. Claudius is a friend who let him sit in jail for a few days before agreeing that Poentje was helping him get back his laptops...but it took him two weeks to do so. Aruba isn't that big.
I really have not heard anything so bizarre from America yet.
Yes, IUPG for Poentje, Claudius, Joran, K2, Peter deVries, Patrick van der Eem, etc. All are innocent until proven guilty by a court of law, in a court of law.
JanThursday, November 5, 2009 07:47 PM
Well I personally do not think that these stories about Poentje rise to the level of concern that some do. It once again appears more the again difference in the way Aruba handles those suspected than the United States or perhaps other countries. They haul people into prison as a suspect and then sort out whether they in fact should be a suspect. it is all bassackwards to me but that is how they do it. Maybe that makes it more confusing for their press too. The Amigoe had this in today, and maybe it will be in their English version tomorrow.
ORANJESTAD — Johnny ‘Poentje’ Castro, presentator van het tv-programma Un Dia den Bida, is gisteren vrijgelaten. Het Openbaar Ministerie (OM) ging akkoord met het verzoek hem op vrije voeten te stellen.
De mediapersoonlijkheid zou eigenlijk tot maandag 9 november in de cel moeten verblijven op verdenking van heling. Hij werd vrijdag 30 oktober aangehouden met een gestolen laptop. Deze computer was enkele weken eerder ontvreemd van zanger Claudius Phillips. Op verzoek van Rossi Marchena, advocaat van de verdachte, besloot de officier van justitie echter om Castro niet langer vast te houden. Castro zegt niet betrokken te zijn bij criminele activiteiten en beweert dat Phillips vanaf het begin op de hoogte was dat hij de laptop in zijn bezit had. De presentator laat aan nieuwswebsite 24ora.com weten dat hij het jammer vindt dat wanneer hij probeert te helpen, zelf vervolgd wordt. Marchena ontkent dat Castro de laptop gekocht zou hebben. Bovendien, zo beweert de advocaat, zou Claudius Phillips zelf aan de politie verklaard hebben dat Poentje Castro hem probeerde te helpen zijn laptops terug te krijgen. Bij de inbraak in het huis van de zanger waren namelijk twee laptops gestolen.
Supposedly Poentje's problems are behind him.
I personally find Aruba as safe and wonderful as any place can be that advertises as a tourist destination. Miami, Atlantic City, Las Vegas, Hollywood, any of those cities want tourists and they all have problems. If people don't feel safe they will go elsewhere. But so far Aruba is more than likely safer than other destinations in the Caribbean.
DottyMonday, November 9, 2009 10:45 AM
That's quite the friendship Claudius and Poentje have. Claudius lets his friend sit in jail for several days and doesn't say a thing until the lawyer announces that Poentje was actuallly helping Claudius, and like any good friend would do, Poentje hung onto the laptop for 2 weeks to make sure it stayed safe. One never knows when the theives might strike again. Makes perfect sense.
JanTuesday, November 10, 2009 01:37 PM
Today in the Amigoe, translation from Windows 7, except for the word Orange City, not too bad.
55)
Frannie
Location: Arizona
Saturday, October 31, 2009 12:31 AM
A Media Circus in Paradise
An Alabama reporter discovers the press doesn’t quite shine in the Caribbean sun.
What an interesting article I had never seen posted at another forum. Basically it really explains a good bit about how the media descended on this story back in 2005 and it makes me wonder how that might have affected the outcome as it stands today.
DottyMonday, November 2, 2009 10:46 PM
It would appear their own media doesn't do any better than all the american media. Take a look at what they did with Poentje...they had him committing suicide. While he was "fencing".
PappyTuesday, November 3, 2009 11:03 AM
The media is getting worse everywhere. I do not think the U.S. has a corner on bad reporting. Lack of ethics, little searching for the truth or not getting what used to be standard "multiple sources for confirmation," has left the building. It is too bad as the word journalism is long gone and it is all media hype, ratings and of course $$$.
54)
Frannie
Location: Arizona
Tuesday, October 27, 2009 11:36 AM
One of the boards had a hot bed topic about how your particular area of the country would have handled the case differently. I so wanted to respond but have not been activated.
I think the biggest difference if one lives in the States would have been in the treatment of Joran being under 18 at the time. Since there was no evidence of any fowl play I just cannot see that he would have spent any time in jail. He also would have had his parents by his side immediately none if this his dad being a judge stuff and his dad would have cautioned him with the aid of an attorney as to how much to say and maybe even got the truth of where she was dropped off right away. But I just do not see that there would have been a search of their homes or too much different. The U.S. is pretty protective of rights and unless some evidence showed up right away new that we never saw I think the case might have been pretty quiet. I also do not see the family of Natalee manipulating the police like the seemed to in Aruba.
PappyTuesday, November 3, 2009 11:11 AM
I live in a rather large city so I dare say many things would have been different. Based on what seemed to be going against the security guards I can see them being brought in, especially if that found articles of the teens in their efffects.
Joran was under the age of 18, so I can see a big difference there as he would have had an attorney with him and also his parents. Could be that the parents along might have gotten Joran to fess up right then and there might not have been any Holiday Inn story at all.
If there was no more than that, would there even been a search of the VDS residence? I doubt it unless they had some reason to suspect she was actually there. With such thin or or no evidence they might not have even searched his apartment.
The Kalpoes also would have had a lawyer and maybe they would not have told the Holiday Inn story.
Would there have been a midnight raid on the VDS home? I certainly do not see that happening where I am from and that in itself might have changed the course of this whole case.
Our area is very quick to react to missing children even before the 48 hour minimum but based on this story I am not sure that they would have reacted any sooner than the 48 hours. All interesting and hard to say. But Aruba is a tiny island and maybe ill prepared for a story that became the biggest missing person case in the history of recent times.
53)
DJ
Saturday, September 12, 2009 09:23 AM
Why not Mountain Brook?
Reading an article this morning about the missing Yale student, I ran across this, and boy did it jump out at me:
Le did not just leave her purse and cell phone behind. She left her friends, family and fiancé, all of whom need to be interviewed carefully by the police. They will have to figure out if she was happy and carefree before her disappearance, or if something was causing her anxiety and concern – something serious enough that it may have caused her hide out.
This was not an option ever with Natalie and it always has bothered me because knowing the mindset of her just might have opened up a whole new window for clues as to what happened. Immediately all of those teens should have been talked to. Why was this never done? Just because this happened in Aruba does not mean that there might not have been things going on or upsetting her at home that could have caused her disappearance. We just do not know and probably will never know now.
DottySaturday, September 12, 2009 01:25 PM
Knowing the mindset of all might have been a plus, not just Natalee and friends, also Joran and friends and from where they were coming. The "boys" have admitted to seeking out pretty tourist girls...that seems to be a known? What was Natalee's mindset when she left an establishment late in the night, with strangers? What was Joran's mindset when he changed his mind at the last minute and frantically looked for some boys to accompany him to CnC's? Why was he disappointed to have Satish along? Was Natalee upset with someone? Was she being reckless for that reason? That we will never know. Joran seems to know that of all the girls Natalee and her friend seemed to drink the heaviest and the most...so why did he choose Natalee? I'm not sure I buy the "Ruth pushed us together" bit. Joran has been well known to apply blame everywhere except himself, imo.
bellaSaturday, September 12, 2009 02:01 PM
It was not an option with Natalee because of HER MOTHER. Her mother lied to ALE and FBI. She also insisted the friends NOT cooperate with Aruban authorities and lie to the media.
Le's story is more troublesome b/c she wasn't some drunk teen who od'd on a girls gone wild weekend.
DJSaturday, September 12, 2009 05:44 PM
Seems they interviewed many of Joran\'s friends and also the Kalpoes, so not sure about all that.
Joran did not want Satish to come along? Never heard that.
They might have done this many times before? Done what. hooked up with tourist girls, seems pretty normal as that is what guys that age do.
Joran picked the girl that drank the most? I thought her friends said she was a responsible drinker.
Natalee\'s mind set that night? Well now that might again have been helpful to have interviewed her friends. And right away as bella says before mother Beth or Aunt Marsha began to control their words.
ArubanVisitorMonday, September 14, 2009 09:42 AM
Hard to interview a group that flees the island, even when their supposed BBF is missing. If they really were wanting to be helpful they could have come back, they could have insisted on trying to explain the details of everything their so called friend did that week, but they didn't. They were not all even ready willing and able to give statements to the FBI later on. To me this was not helpful and also some of their early statements about Joran were totally wrong as he was not even the guy they thought he was. All of this led to confusion and was not helping this case.
DottyMonday, September 14, 2009 10:59 AM
I think they had a flight to catch, didn't they? If they had stayed over, wouldn't it have been a problem with accomodation? I understand most hotels were booked solid pretty well.
Besides, as with most teens at all hot spot vacations, they sleep around a bit, so it wasn't very likely they were worried when one of the girls, or guys didn't sleep in their own bed for the night, not? Seems that is what they all thought...that Natalee may have spent the night with Joran. At the time they were leaving, Natalee was merely late. Why go into such a panic and change all those plans when Natalee's situation may just have been a simple one, as they thought, that is, sleeping over somewhere and sleeping in.There is another forum where a handful keep hammering away at, "why didn't they help search?" Who then knew at the moment that the planes were ready to leave that a search was needed? They didn't apparently.
Are you saying there was a reason to panic and go all out just b/c one kid was a little late, at that point?
So Joran was not the guy they thought he was. Joran is not the guy I thought he was either, for 2 years.
Besides the last night, those that didn't have alternative plans in their rooms, were out getting drunk. I'd like to see anyone do that and try and remember details after. IMO, the kids were protecting their own hides, b/c what they did in Aruba wasn't going to stay in Aruba if they talked. They found out different.
Better question yet, is why J2K were planning all those stories and why did they know they would have to mess up the investigation with lies??
Joran himself stated he didn't really see much of K2 after he met them, and then after Natalee went missing, they were constantly together. Why was that? They were lonely?
PappyTuesday, September 15, 2009 10:23 AM
Never seen any indication that the Kalpoes and Joran had not been spending time together prior to this. Seems it had been and off again on again friendship as many are. Naturally after the Twitty brigade descended on the Van der sloot house in the middle of the night the boys knew that some crazy American family seemed out to get them so it makes sense that they spent a few hours discussing this unpleasant situation for what it might be, the beginning of a personal assault on only them. Since that all proved true, they probably should have met more. It is your opinion that they were planning stories before hand. If they had really planned, they would IMO done a much better job. The fact that they were so inept to me shows they did not plan at all.
For me what the Brookies did in the first couple days is not so troubling but after they knew there was indeed a missing friend of theirs, then I find not offering honest help very wrong. My guess is a couple things, none of these kids were that close to Natalee after all and they stood too much to lose themselves for offering any help that might have gotten them in any kind of trouble. All this about her being such a close good friend to these girls and guys was IMO not true, she was on the outside looking in and might have something to do with why she behaved out of character down there.
I have never heard anything about the K's or Joran from a reliable source that would cause me to believe they did Nat any harm. JMHO of course.
onc...Friday, October 9, 2009 08:24 AM
Pappy, I agree with some of what you say. For me what the Brookies did in the first couple days is not so troubling but after they knew there was indeed a missing friend of theirs, then I find not offering honest help very wrong. My guess is a couple things, none of these kids were that close to Natalee after all and they stood too much to lose themselves for offering any help that might have gotten them in any kind of trouble. All this about her being such a close good friend to these girls and guys was IMO not true, she was on the outside looking in and might have something to do with why she behaved out of character down there.
Weren't the early statements from those kids, they thought Natalee stayed over at Joran's and slept in? Is there a need for all to have stayed because one slept in?
Natalee was late as far as they knew. You all fault Beth for jumping to conclusions of rape and murder, yet you expect the kids to feel a need they needed to have searched.
Where would they all stay if they had wanted to? There was No Room At the busy Inn.
At that point no one thought there needed to be a search yet. Those kids are all over privileged brats, but Natalee's fate really had nothing to do with them, imo. Unless you of course believe Joran that Ruth pushed them together. I have not seen that written or said by any other person except Joran and he's not the most reliable person. I have never heard anything about the K's or Joran from a reliable source that would cause me to believe they did Nat any harm. JMHO of course
Strange that the boys had a need to start fabricating a story even before the Alabama crew hit town.
If I could have a sigline...it would be this: If you believe in IUPG, what do you have against Freedom of speech?
PappySunday, October 11, 2009 11:38 AM
onc... Yes Freedom of Speech is good but Right to Remain Silent in the States can be an even more important legal right when one is suspected of a crime. Had this happened here I doubt that any of these boys would have been advised to say anything. What they did do that night is create a lame story that they thought would alleviate in the short run but still send the police in the general direction (Holiday Inn is a stones throw from the beach area) By the way they searched the hut area anyway so not sure what difference it really made. The guards were suspicious in of themselves and I still personally wonder about them.
Getting back to the Brookie gang. Like I said it was not that they did not stay in Aruba that troubles me because certainly changing travel plans is next to impossible. It is the way they all were like little robots in what they said. I almost feel there was a script when they spoke about the trip as they all sounded the same and much of what they said showed to be not exactly true. And where was the cooperation later with the FBI. Some refused to even speak with them.
DottyThursday, October 15, 2009 12:06 AM
Pappy, I have nothing against the right to remain silent...too bad it didn't stay that way and let the cops do thier work. Instead there has been story after story for bucks.
As far as the guards went one had racked up misdemeanors, they exchanged drugs for expensive equipment, etc. That little bit of drug dealing is like a pee in the ocean, as far as I'm concerned regarding their dealing against Aruba's history of drug containers coming through to other countries as well as Aruba. Look at the kafuffle with Patrick..they got nothing straight to report and then it was dropped like a hot potatoe. A rented vehicle (of Patricks) twice broken into, old charges and new charges...very lame.
The Brookies are spoiled brats who were covering their own butts. I think they were too hung over and too lacking in sleep to remember detail and probably for those reasons preferred not to talk nonsense. IMO.
DottyThursday, October 15, 2009 12:09 AM
And to add to above, since the Brookies were not the last known to be with Natalee, doesn't the right to remain silent apply to them as well?
52)
Ace
Friday, September 11, 2009 10:12 AM
Joran has been awfully quiet lately but a few months back didn't he do another stunt for $$$$ and we have yet to hear how all that went down. The polygraph that he did and was filmed over in Netherlands. What happened with all that? If that big fat man paid Joran a lot of money you would think he would want to get his money's worth. It is the fall season now maybe it'll be on Dutch station soon?
BlueFriday, September 11, 2009 02:41 PM
Still negotiating from what I have read. Perhaps in a few weeks something will be announced. Doubt that it will be anything to get excited about though, but it might help keep the case in the news. Any publicity is good for that purpose.
DottySaturday, September 12, 2009 01:29 PM
Now that the summer break is over, we should be hearing something, not? Jaap had said, that what he has...leaves Joran no slack for answering to certain questions, or something to that effect. If that's the case, then I imagine there have been people working to stop what Jaap has planned, not?
PappyTuesday, September 15, 2009 10:34 AM
People working to stop this ... really? If it was a big deal and hurtful to Joran it would have been aired right away, don't ya think? Sound like a Greta, wait until the November $weeps? Does the Netherlands have that too?
DottyThursday, October 15, 2009 12:13 AM
Another money grubber trying to get rich on the case. If he had something incriminating to tell, he likely would have/should have made a statement to ALE...who likely wouldn't do anything with it anyway. They want the case to go away. Like Tromps, etc. That isn't good for tourism and image.
51)
Anon
Wednesday, September 9, 2009 11:07 PM
As a frequent traveller of the Carribean I am always amazed at how few people that I speak to have even heard of the Holloway case and even those that have never really felt it impacted the country of Aruba in much of a negative way. I do not think it especially did the damage that the boycott group had hoped it was to do.
I see often on that scared monkey board posting pictures of no one on the beach but when I have been there the beaches were loaded. I just don't think this case has been hurt so much by this but more the economy of other countries in general.
DottyFriday, September 11, 2009 06:37 PM
Several of the people I know from Carribean nations, and living here, know the case well, and they have opinions that are quite strong. It all depends whom one talks to.
lindaSaturday, September 12, 2009 09:08 AM
I am sure that people who live in Aruba DO have strong feelings about this case. I bet the people that live in Boulder Colorado have strong feelings about the Unsolved Case of Jon Benet. But people have not stopped going to Boulder and the University of Col is still popular. Unsolved crimes are a part of life, something these crazy boycotters never seemed to get. I doubt very much that it has caused many to not travel to Aruba. And for each that might have decided against going, 5 other ones probably said lets go to Aruba, even out of curiosity. Funny how people like to drive by those car accidents and watch. I bet at this point no real effect at all.
DottySaturday, September 12, 2009 01:42 PM
Most of the people who went to Aruba out of curiousity have loved Aruba and keep going back. I would never boycott or share in a boycott against any nation because it simply is counter-productive and gets less answers and just alot of hostility. IMO Beth probably felt she had no ohter option because truths weren't forthcoming. I do believe there were people who tried to change her mind on many things and gave her "stories" that may not have been honest either.
It's not the few missing people that would change my mind about going there, rather the stories that have come out of there since the disappearance and by whom. So many have degraded a missing and presumed dead girl. For that reason and others I couldn't muster up the desire to visit Aruba.That's not boycotting, just that Aruba doesn't sound desirable in case I should face a legal problem not brought on by myself. The pictures are beautiful out of the Carribean, however Europe is my place of adventure, and there are many more missing people there.
bellaSaturday, September 12, 2009 02:07 PM
When I speak to friends or family across the country, nobody knows who she is and if they have a vague recollection of the name, they could care less. Drunken teens get in trouble in Florida and Cancun as well. The only difference is their parents don't go on publicity tours to smear locals and lie about their drunken daughter or son.
ArubanVisitorMonday, September 14, 2009 09:34 AM
Having been to Aruba about every other year for the last 20, I can say most Arubans want to put this behind them and move on. In the beginning the issue of Joran and the Kalpoes guilt was mixed and now it might be leaning more in Joran's favor but still probably more about how those more recent "so called confessions," brought more bad publicity against Aruba than actual guilt for the disappearance of Natalee. But most have put even that behind them and have moved on. A lot of them have seen many a drunk young teen on their island celebrating and do know what that can lead to. And there is still major resentment against Beth for all her tirades of untruth and for wanting a boycott against the island and its people that really did try and help her that summer. Most think she was not so very gracious and grateful.
DottyMonday, September 14, 2009 11:11 AM
Beths tirades were mainly out of desperation imo. She was being given alot of different stories...even Dompig was clear on that. I suppose she did the PR to get help. I don't think all of what she said were lies, though some may have been embellished quite a bit.
I have info from co-workers who visit Aruba and question people when they have the chance and I hear alot different than what you are saying. Especially since Joran showed on tape, Natalee shaking before she didn't respond anymore. That was never talked about on blogs/forums. That was a question that ALE asked Beth and Jug, whether Natalee had seizures. Then out of the blue, Joran mentions the seizures on the tape. It wasn't the weed either.
I agree most Arubans want this behind them, but they are an honest lot and they will talk if asked.
I agree the boycott didn't build any bridges thats for sure.
CDTuesday, September 15, 2009 07:31 PM
There is not one person in my whole world of friends that believes one thing that woman (Beth) has ever said on tv. She was nasty, unfeeling and never seemed to have a clue about her daughter nor showed any genuine emotion, or even know what her daughter was really like.
If Natalee had been anywhere in the states and disappeared I would, based on her mom's actions alone believe she absolutely ran away. Throw her stepdad into the mix and I would guarantee it.
Makes it harder to think this is what happened in a foreign country but does not make it impossible.
DottyFriday, October 9, 2009 08:37 AM
CD she was desperate and was being given quite a runaround. Even Dompig denied some things in discussions that were later to be found in statements.
Anyone missing a flesh and blood relative would get desperate in such a situation. She acted as though no one took her serious. She burned her bridges with all her PR I must admit. For that she will not get any answers I'm sure and it's too bad Aruba made that stance.
CDSunday, October 11, 2009 11:52 AM
Dotty ... When a child goes missing parents certainly are desperate, no question or disagreement there. But to jump on the island with a bunch of angry friends in hand and begin to start taking over with that 3 a.m. launch on the VDS home seems way over the line. Then there were the actions, so I have heard of Jug and his pals storming all over the city like a page out of the Wild West. I would imagine the police became very leery very early on with this family and not having the leadership of an experienced group of investigators they put barriers up and it caused a separation of cooperation from almost day 1.
I do not believe I have ever read of any family that was quite as aggressive as they were in Aruba with an investigation and with all that, it still got them no where. Plus the media was a contributor because their attack on Aruba being almost a banana republic right from the beginning coupled with the actions of Beth and Jug's crew, all portraying Aruba in a bad light just fueled this case to a point that could never be turned around. Lots of lessons could be learned on what not to do by this case.
DottyThursday, October 15, 2009 12:24 AM
Beth probably thought Natalee had stayed with Joran the night and she probably thought they were taking her home that night or in the morning.
What were ALE thinking when they allowed this 3 AM visit? It was their jurisdiction. All they needed to do was put a stop to the visit or offer jail overnight if they didn't comply.
Yes, those stories of Jug and friends barging around like Texas bulls in Aruba was something else. What makes a person do that sort of thing? I would say INCORRECT info would do that. Strange tips that Natalee is in a crackhouse would make anyone barge around.
I wouldn't consider Aruba a banana republic b/c they have a very minimal rate of people with a lower education compared to other larger countries. They shouldn't have acted like a banana republic with the case. They did it to themselves and blamed the Americans.
CDSaturday, October 17, 2009 01:58 AM
Sorry I do not think Aruba did that bad of a job considering how inexperienced they were in ever having what became such a high profile case. What really made this case different and what caused the greatest challenge was the entire media force from the USA descending on the island almost immediately and attacking almost immediately Aruban/Dutch law. It seems the fact that their law enforcement had different ways was not quite right for the American law critics. Plus the family of Natalee seemed to feel bolstered by the media's criticism and maybe the ALE started reacting to the family and the media. This little island has a fairly safe record compared to the other islands for serious crime. It is a fact that almost seemed lost after awhile.
One thing though I wish the police had prevented the Van der Sloot house invasion in the middle of the night. Had that never happened I think we might be at a different place today with this story.
DottyMonday, October 19, 2009 06:56 PM
CD, I'm not saying Aruba didn't do a good job in what became a high profile case. One needs to only glimpse at the discovery log plus countless other material to know how much work they did. They got off to a shakey start though and imo lost what never can be retrieved again. I can only wonder what might have been had there not been a home invasion at 3 AM.
To date Aruba hasn't solved any missing persons cases, and imo they want them to just go away.
Take a look at Hogan missing in Curacao...blaming the family and his nightlife. So far American media has said very little and I wonder if they are holding back to see how this all unfolds. I have read now countless writings how people feel about Hogan's disappearance and the first thing on their minds was how will this affect tourism, and their living. I suppose people who work for tourism have to be worried, however it gave me a bitter taste. If I were to go there for vacation, would I be viewed as "income"? For myself I have made up my mind, I will vacation where "tourism" isn't the only means of employment and money in the pocket for the locals.
CDThursday, October 22, 2009 10:02 AM
Why would the American media cover the case of James Hogan? There are thousands of people that go missing all the time and unless you are white or young it rarely gets covered unless it is a slow news time. It was the perfect time for Natalee to go missing as far as coverage goes because it was summer, no politics or anything serious going on. The minute Katrina happened and hard news was available those news outlets bolted from Aruba never to return.
Actually I think the media set this case back. It is what the police are doing that counts not what the media is saying about what the police is doing. Other than circulating her picture for aid in maybe locating her that is all the media is really good for.
Aruba cannot help that there income comes from the tourist industry. What else is there on a tiny island? Actually that should make them more interested in solving the case not less.
I guess it goes back to whether one thinks they did the best job they could have with this case. From my end I believe they did. Way too many cases unsolved all over to just focus on one missing girl as the only case that absolutely should have been solved over any other. This one just seemed to have the right people in charge to make it more visible. All that visibility could have worked against the poor girl, we just don't know.
DottySunday, October 25, 2009 11:27 AM
Well I don't think tourism is the only income, but it's all that the average person in the hospitality field has, and I do believe they wanted the case solved. Someone in the upper ranks must be making a killing on drugs that come through there although that doesn't benefit the average joe.
I am confused about the safety on Aruba. I know it's touted as a safe and happy island, however Glenda just posted at RU about the underworld operating there and Natalee was the scapegoat for. Very interesting stories out of Aruba.
FrannieTuesday, October 27, 2009 11:26 AM
Seems drugs is a part of the Caribbean and if a young person is smart they will respect that and stay away from that element down there when they travel. Lots of talk about how heavily this Alabama group of teens was with drug usage, that being the case almost anything could have happened to her. And if it was drugs I doubt we will ever know. For the average tourist that stays away from that element I would imagine that it is very safe.
50)
Roberta
Wednesday, September 9, 2009 10:53 PM
I admit I am borrowing a post from another board but it seemed interesting and I just read there and never have posted, so will throw it out here.
If Joran and or the Kalpoes did not do something to Natalee who else might be looked at since we are at 4 plus years and sort of stuck on no news and no solutions. Is it time to begin again and look at everyone all over again?
Who might be looked at?
crimejunkieThursday, September 10, 2009 11:05 AM
I do not know but do other jurisdictions just sit on only one suspect and never look at other ones after such a long time? Surely there might be another direction to look at.
I never will forget when Greta VanSusteren went first to Aruba that summer. One of her first shows she spoke of the unsavory people she saw around the casinos down there. It has always stood out in my mind. What happened to all of them? If Holloway was doing drugs as Bill O'Reily has suggested then perhaps one of those characters came upon her on her way back to the hotel. If she was wanting to extend her stay, doing a little drugs that night would be a likely way to do it.
Is the real cover up in Aruba covering up their drug trading going on, maybe with unsuspecting tourists.
Remember NataleeThursday, September 10, 2009 07:31 PM
You have got to be kidding. There is a reason this punk is still a suspect in this case. Yes even after 4 1/2 years. And I know the name of the book, says no evidence BUT that does not mean there is no evidence. As far as I am concerned this kid lies like no other and is a real sociopath and just because they have not nailed his sorry a*s does not mean that he is not as Dompig said, guilty as hell. Yeah I know it is just a board topic but to me there is no one else and it is too bad he has confused the case with so many lies.
DottyThursday, September 10, 2009 10:20 PM
Do other jurisdictions sit on one suspect for 4 and 1/2 and never look at other ones?
As far as I know, only when they have a reason to.
ArubanVisitorMonday, September 14, 2009 09:48 AM
More likely IMO that it was a totally unknown to all of us person that might have been one at the Soul Beach Festival or another visitor to the island that weekend. There are lots of people at times like that in Aruba, often coming by sea, maybe even from another island or S. America. It is so possible that anyone of a dozen unknowns could have come in contact with this girl and we may never know. Sorry I just am not convinced and never have been that it was the Kalpoes or Joran. If he left her there, she easily could have come in contact with someone else.
DottyMonday, September 14, 2009 11:18 AM
I think it was Poentje ( of teleAruba) and Greta. They are both Scientologists
They took Natalee into the Scientology ship that was parked there along with beachfest people.
49)
Jan
Location: Pittsburgh
Saturday, September 5, 2009 10:05 PM
Aruba Today
Nice to see my friend Julia have an exciting and interesting evening in Aruba.
Click on above image for improved view!
RizzoSunday, September 6, 2009 09:51 AM
Nice to see a happy Julia who hopefully like other Arubans have put this case in the past and are getting on with their lives.
I always liked Renfro, she seemed to be honest and fair.
ArubanVisitorMonday, September 14, 2009 09:49 AM
Never met her, just seen her on TV but she seems like a nice person.
48)
Kara
Friday, September 4, 2009 12:46 PM
Lifetime Movie Network Once again will feature on their "True Movie Thursday," The Natalee Holloway Story, next Thursday September 10, 2009, at 8 P.M.
AMVSaturday, September 5, 2009 02:17 PM
Nice that you alert people to the future airings of this movie.
While I am sure those that follow this case are pleased that this movie is rebroadcast over and over again on the LMN, it is interesting to note that the ratings for this movie are rather low. It only garnered 2 1/2 stars out of 5, where many and most Lifetime movies are 4 and 5 star events. So while the subject matter might be important, there is no question as a movie it was poorly done and the acting was abysmal.
crimejunkieThursday, September 10, 2009 11:09 AM
Tonight is the night, the movie will be on again. Each time I watch it I see more things that I question. I am not a big believer in this story the way it was told. Not that any publicity about the case is necessarily bad because it brings the case to the attention of the public. I just am not so sure that this is anything but the story as seen by only one pair of biased eyes.
BlueFriday, September 11, 2009 03:01 PM
Finally saw the movie last night. While it may not have been the best movie ever made it still was quite an emotional one. It certainly showed the torment her family went through and how it effected them. I am glad they made this movie. It helps to keep the story alive.
bellaSaturday, September 12, 2009 02:11 PM
I thought the storyline was interesting as it showed beth to be a liar. Her 15 mins are over. SHe's not getting another nose and face job out of it. I say nose job, b/c I was told by a seemingly reliable source that the nose got a fix too.
ArubanVisitorMonday, September 14, 2009 09:51 AM
No one I know in Aruba believes this version of the story. I think this belongs on the "Fiction Channel."
47)
annie
Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:14 AM
Never Give Up Hope - I am one that refuses to give up on Natalee being alive!!
Tahoe Girl Missing For 18 Years May Be Alive
August 27, 2009 9:30 AM
SOUTH LAKE TAHOE, Calif. (CBS13) A possible break in the 1991 kidnapping case of an 11-year-old girl from South Lake Tahoe. A woman showed up in Contra Costa County yesterday, claiming to be Jaycee Lee Dugard, who has been missing for 18 years.
This morning, Dugard's mother, Terry Probyn is flying to Northern California from her home in Southern California to meet with the woman who claims to be her missing daughter.
CBS13 spoke with Dugard's stepfather Carl Probyn late Wednesday, who says the FBI facilitated a phone call between the woman in Concord and Dugard's mother Terry who now lives in Riverside County. According to Carl Probyn, this woman walked into a Bay Area police station identifying herself as Jaycee Lee Dugard, who was 11-years-old at the time of her disappearance.
The El Dorado County Sheriff's Department has announced they will hold a press conference Thursday to discuss the high-profile kidnapping case from 1991.
Dugard was kidnapped the morning of June 10, 1991, while walking from her home to the school bus stop on Washoan Blvd. in Meyers. Her stepfather said he watched a stranger pull up and yank Jaycee Lee into a two-toned gray sedan as she kicked and screamed. Probyn believed a man and woman were in the vehicle. Although there were several false sightings, Dugard was never seen again.
CBS13's Kurtis Ming investigated the cold case in 2003 when there was renewed hope Dugard may have been alive. There were several similarities to the Elizabeth Smart case out of Utah. Smart and Dugard resemble one another. Both girls were abducted in the month of June, 11 years apart. One of Smart's alleged captors, Wanda Barzee resembled the female captor in the composite sketch in Dugard's case. Dugard was kidnapped near Highway 50 which leads to Salt Lake City.
DottyThursday, August 27, 2009 04:29 PM
There aren't that many happy endings unfortunately. Those people that take children and the children survive, most likely they needed the children as some sort of guarantee. Possibly so they can apply for social assistance or other government handouts. Natalee was not of that age that she could be brainwashed by abductors.
tmjThursday, August 27, 2009 04:45 PM
People should never give up hope. This story if it proves to be true is a perfect example of never say never, not without a body. And there have been way too many weird and very strange elements to this case to make me believe for sure that Natalee is even dead.
As for her not being of the age that she could not be brainwashed? What age would that be. History shows two examples of a girl around the age of Natalee being brainwashed, Patty Hearst and Elizabeth Smart.
DottySaturday, August 29, 2009 12:28 PM
Patty Hearst was in a totally different league. She had everything she could have ever wanted...life gets boring for those that everything. I doubt she was kidnapped and brainwashed. She wanted to live the other side of the coin.
Smart was probably scared and was brainwashed easily through fear. Strange stories didn't surround these cases like Natalee's. Blogdom gave silly people who want to detract from the case, an avenue to do so. Natalee has been under the sea very soon after she didn't show at the HI.
RizzoSaturday, August 29, 2009 01:39 PM
Interesting how even a post of hope about another missing girl found, can have such differing opinions. I was an avid reader of the Patty Hearst case and I disagree completely that she wanted a new life or the "other side of the coin," whatever that means. What she did with her life in later years was a credit to whom she was as a person.
As for Elizabeth Smart and Natalee, why couldn't Natalee have been brainwashed through fear if she was taken? No one knows one thing for sure about her other than she is missing. There is no evidence (like the book says) and just because a bunch of random people on message boards have concocted a lot of harebrained theories ON BOTH SIDES, it does not mean they are true.
What of course makes the most sense is that she was lost at sea or that she was disposed of at sea by someone. So maybe we will never know for sure. But really until the case is truly solved and when cases like Jaycee prove that miracles do happen, then why not keep the faith in a miracle. I have read where there are those that absolutely do believe that Natalee is alive. Who am I to say otherwise. I will hope and pray that they are right.
DottySunday, August 30, 2009 10:35 AM
I didn't follow Patty Hearst after her incarceration so I have o idea what she became. When she was suppoosedly kidnapped, she fell right into the crime immediately. shehad to have been very weak in mind if her captors made such a strong impression right off the bat. The other side of the coin...a life she didn't know may have been exciting for her. Living on the run.
I think it's great the girl was found finally, since many people apparently just didn't want to get involved and report what they saw and heard. Luckily for Jaycee that her captor was trusting her and taking her to business meetings.
I've read before where girls were imprisoned for long periods by molesters and finally were somehow able to get to freedom. The majority don't have that kind of luck. What society needs to do is recognize these predators and watch them...that is, take an interest in their methods of operating and aid Police in capture by way of tips, etc. There are groups in Canada doing that on sites and one can be surprised by all the tips that can come forward just by local lay people...the general public.
crimejunkieThursday, September 10, 2009 11:13 AM
Never heard of this story before. What a horrible situation for this girl, now a woman. Wonder what her parents thought all these years as she was never found. Did they think she was dead? Did they give up on her or continue to accuse others of the crime? Just musing here a bit. Certainly this has to give anyone with a missing child some hope. Maybe 18 years from now we will read here that Natalee has been held somewhere too?
DottySaturday, September 12, 2009 02:05 AM "The last time I talked with Beth, I was real hopeful. She said, 'One day, I am burying her. The next day, I am wanting her home alive.' It's just like the waves in that ocean," she said tearfully. "It is a ride." (this offered by Marilyn Whitlock)
She said the Aruban justice system has confused and frustrated the Twitty family since their arrival, especially since many of suspects in the case have been released.
<snip>
...but she said everyone has different theories about exactly what happened to her.
end of quote.
I can imagine how frustrated and confused Beth was especially since all the scenarios and wild goose chases that led from "tips". She certainly doesn't sound like someone who knows where her dtr is.
46)
Jan
Tuesday, August 25, 2009 01:53 PM
Patrick Van der Eem Arrested in Aruba
A man who became apart of this case almost three years after Natalee went missing in Aruba, Patrick van der Eem has once again become a news item by failing to pay his Aruba hotel bill, becoming aggressive and also for cocaine possession.
DottyTuesday, August 25, 2009 11:21 PM
All those large hotels are American, and even if they aren't, they make sure they aren't stuck with a bill a patron can't pay. They take imprints and very likely make a credit check to make sure the person is good for the stay. That Patrick was able to get away without paying in 4 major hotels sounds a bit strange, doesn't it?? Or did they make an exception in his case and not ask for a credit card?
Was it the threats that got him jailed then? Or the cocaine? Or is it a set up?
This is what Peter deVries says:
De Vries: Well I was very pleased to hear that the police on Aruba rushes out full force if you do not pay your hotel bill...
-laughter-
De Vries: Because I also know the story of someone who has admitted that he had let pass away an innocent girl only to cover that up afterwards, and after that lied about that to the entire world and mainly the mother of the girl in a horrible way, and who now just walks around, and if any tips surface about that person the police in Aruba often does not have time for that, so this is very good news
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I love sarcastic humour.
funnygirlWednesday, August 26, 2009 12:32 AM
How exactly does anyone check into a hotel without a credit card, not once but several times? I would like to know because that is where I want to go on my next vacation.
The story sounds a bit strange to me but then what else is new when it comes to this crazy case. Now the part about the aggressive behavior and the cocaine that seems right on.
I do wonder how some that thought this man was a hero are viewing him now. He always seemed a bit scary to me.
Peter's comments though were pretty funny. Sarcasm is always good to me, too!
DottyWednesday, August 26, 2009 01:24 AM
@funnygirl:
I never loved the man or considered him MY hero. He had gained Joran's trust and at that time deVries knew he would be the one for a set-up. He got Joran talking. I'm not making fun of a parent of a missing and presumed dead girl for calling him a herpo like some other place is doing, and yet by usually contructive posters.
Whatever gets the job done. If deVries had gotten a Priest to befriend Joran, what do you think would have happened?
Patrick has quite a past, but he's the kind that many Police units pay for "tips".
Take your credit card when you go to Aruba. Those hotels are all American and in this country the hotels all require up front credit card.
crimejunkieWednesday, August 26, 2009 09:54 PM
Should be interesting as the facts unravel as to whether this was as much about a hotel bill or perhaps some other more serious issue that we are not even privy to. I cannot imagine that the hotel problem is even the true reason for the arrest. Seems to me that the Dutch are a little closer to the vest with their information they give out, especially because of who this man is. Always something with this case though.
DottyThursday, August 27, 2009 01:26 AM
A whole big team for unpaid hotel bills? Usually the team consists of several LE plus some from the OM's office not? Ann Angela claimed death threats were made and reported by the person they were made to. He may just end up being the "disposer" of Natalee yet, with Perry's boat. Yes always something with this case and so much BS I'm actually getting fed up with it.
JanTuesday, September 1, 2009 10:51 AM
There never was a good Dutch or English article about Patrick's release. Last week though he was released after paying a fine and paying off the bills he had incurred. So a free man Patrick is once again. Drama over, for now.
crimejunkieThursday, September 10, 2009 11:21 AM
Released? well I hope if he is still in Aruba they keep an eye on him down there. I still have some suspicions about this man and the case. Maybe the reason he wanted to get so close to Joran was strictly personal directly related to his own family or others he might know that are involved in the Holloway disappearance. Strange things have happened. Hope they keep any eye on him.
DottySaturday, September 12, 2009 01:55 AM
There never was a decent article stating why and for what he was taken into custody either. Drugs first, then he didn't have enough that would be considered not for personal use. Then death threats, then old death threats from a year or so ago which really isn't possible under their system. Odd that he had 2 rental vehicles ransacked...they weren't looking for drugs....
45)
Crimejunkie
Friday, August 21, 2009 06:41 AM
I noticed on one of the Holloway forums they were discussing the psychics Kelly and Daniel and their involvement in this case. They never seemed to be picked up by the U.S. media at all. Some of their suggestions regarding Jug Twitty were rather shocking I must admit. But then not being a big fan of Jugs I would not exactly put anything passed him. On the other hand other things they mention I have wondered about. I noticed Jan that you included them in the book, but seemed to dismiss them too as opportunists or perhaps not credible. I wondered if you or anyone had any thoughts they might want to share on them or if it might be a topic for discussion.
Many challenging cases have been helped by psychics by the way.
funnygirlFriday, August 21, 2009 03:36 PM
I love it when the psychos are discussed as it seems to bring out the passions from the best of posters. Just reread that chapter on the book about them and they did seem to be full of themselves didn't they?
44)
Jan
Location: Aruba
Wednesday, August 12, 2009 08:30 AM
Back in Aruba, and it is as beautiful as ever. First time I have been able to approach gradually from the sea, on a cruise ship. What a spectacular site. And Aruba is as busy as ever, no signs of a slowing ecconomy here.
Maybe a few more pictures later and hopefully some updates to my Chapter Thirteen.
My family, by the way, first time here, loved it!
JanWednesday, August 12, 2009 03:44 PM
Very few people ever speak about Curacao when they travel to this area, and "oh my goodness," at first glance and after a day it seems to be much more beautiful than Aruba and more of a cosmopolitan city for sure comparing Oranjestad and Willianstead. I will for sure be returning to Curacao again.
pooksFriday, August 14, 2009 09:34 AM
hey I bet we are all curious if you saw anyone interesting in Aruba or even more interesting in Curacaou? Tell us. Any case updates?
DottySaturday, August 15, 2009 09:12 AM
Don't go off with strangers now...drink responsibly...
JanTuesday, August 18, 2009 10:24 AM
Hey Pooks, "yes," I had some great encounters with some amazing people in both Aruba and Curacao.
tmjTuesday, August 18, 2009 05:20 PM
Looks beautiful there. Are you sharing anymore pictures from your trip?
bellaSaturday, September 12, 2009 02:19 PM
wow the water is so bluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuue!! I just love that color. It is like so of france. Is this your pix when playing tourista?
I've seen a number of House Hunters in Aruba and I can't believe how cheap a reasonable size beach house is with awesome views. It would be great to buy vacation home there.
I did note lots of wind. Does it cool off the heat or is it like wind in the desert?
Lemme know when you're taking me. I'm ready anytime after the end of this month!
p.s. My uncle pete, (who was not really an uncle but very close friend of the family) use to hang in curacao all the time when he was doing grain deals in Venezuela. He preferred to stay there and loved loved loved it!!! (maybe sumthin about chevaz was a put off!)
ArubanVisitorMonday, September 14, 2009 09:54 AM
Lots of wind, bella but it cools you off and is pleasant except for the ladies hairdos.
Prices are expensive to some, depends on what you are looking for. but to have an opportunity to live in paradise, probably affordable. There is really nothing quite as lovely as Aruba. There is a reason it remains such a popular vacation place year after year.
ArubanVisitorTuesday, September 15, 2009 10:30 AM
Lots of wind, bella but it cools you off and is pleasant except for the ladies hairdos.
Prices are expensive to some, depends on what you are looking for. but to have an opportunity to live in paradise, probably affordable. There is really nothing quite as lovely as Aruba. There is a reason it remains such a popular vacation place year after year.
43)
Jan
Location: San Juan
Friday, August 7, 2009 07:16 AM
Confusion over June 13th Police Statement by Joran van der Sloot.
This particular statement has been puzzling. The translation floating around had it as "Deepak came with two dogs." What is interesting is that the Kalpoe household has no dogs. And although Joran's family does have two dogs, Deepak wouldn't have had access to them. The "two dogs" translation doesn't seem to relate to anything in this case.
What seems more likely is that Joran actually said, "I called Deepak and he came with the Honda." The words, "twee honden" (two dogs), as written by the transcriber (deposition reporter), most likely was said by Joran as the similarly sounding "de Honda" (the Honda). Deepak's car was that silver Honda we heard so much about.
This was indeed the purpose to try and understand and bring some degree of clarity to these statements. With this new interpretation I believe that is what we have done.
FierljepperFriday, August 7, 2009 09:12 AM
Jan,
Agree with your conclusion. This sounds much more logical to me. Joran was sobbing during the post lunch chat with Van der Straaten and it's highly likely that he misinterpreted Joran's words.
Please note that you have left out a Q&A from that a particular statement:
(...)
To my question to Joran if he can tell what happened after the girl had fallen asleep at the Fisherman's huts, he answers: “I called Deepak and he came with two dogs. I think he raped the girl and done something to her.”
To my question where the girl then is buried, he answers: I think she’s buried next to the Fisherman's Huts, other then that I wouldn’t know.
I propose Joran to answer the following question with just yes or no. I ask Joran if the girl was thrown into the sea? He answers: “No, I mean, I don't know.”
During the conversation Joran shows varying emotions. Sometimes he cries, sometimes he is very direct in his answers. Joran also indicated he felt very sorry for his family, and that he is having the best contact with his father. I ask him why he then has lied to his father about the Holiday Inn. Joran responds that he has disappointed his father in doing so.
(...)
So I'd add: Interrogator: Joran, please answer the following question with only yes or no? Was the girl thrown into the sea?
Joran: No, I mean, I don't know.
FierljepperFriday, August 7, 2009 10:01 AM
Please note that the heading "June 13th Police Statement by Joran van der Sloot" is not correct. These are just summaries of observations made by police officers. Joran's real June 13th PV has not been leaked and only elements of it are listed in Joran's book (so I guess he has it). Please find the translation below. Think it's important to include it in the flow of statements:
Monday June 13th 2005
At 14:40, I withdraw my earlier statement that Deepak has dropped off Natalee by himself at the Holiday Inn. I finally admit to the police that my earlier statements were lies. I say:
My third statement is not entirely the truth. I am now willing to tell the full truth. That Deepak, Satish and Natalee early morning have driven to my house is true. Deepak drives, Satish sits besides him, and Natalee and I are on the backseat. Around 1:40AM we stop in front of my house. I ask her if she wants to come with me to my apartment, because I want to have sex with her. I would then later call a cab for her that would bring her back to the hotel. Natalee does not want to come in, but she all of a sudden wants to see sharks at North coast. She speaks normally and her eyes are normal as well, but she was a little drunk and she sometimes dozed away. Then we pass her hotel, but she does not want to go there. I tell Deepak to drop us off at the Fisherman's huts. It is my intention to walk back from there to the Holiday Inn and have sex along the way. She leans on me after we got out of the car and whilst we kiss we walk into the direction of the Holiday Inn, but Natalee wants to walk into the other direction. When we arrive at the Fisherman's huts we kiss. She wants to stay and sleep on the beach, I want to go home, I have trial-exams the next day. I tell her I have to go home and that I am walking with her into the direction of the hotel. Natalee does not want to go back to her hotel, she wants me to to stay with her and watch the stars and she tells me again that she does not want to go home. I lift her up and walk a short distance, but she wants me to put her down. Around 3:00AM I call Deepak and ask him to pick me up. He asks where the girl is. I say that she is sleeping on the beach and does not want to listen to me. He would come immediately. I wake her up and tell her that I am going to bring her to her hotel. She refuses and continues to sleep. I think if it is not better to lift her up and take her with me. I am lying next to Natalee thinking for 10 minutes, while she sleeps. I do not say anything to her, because her eyes are closed. When I hear Deepak's car arrive I wake her up again, and still she doesn’t want to come to with me to her hotel. I get up and walk to the car. I tell Satish that Natalee is sleeping on the beach. Satish answers: “Don't #@*%! with that bitch, somebody will find her tomorrow.” Around 3:30AM Satish drops me off at my house. I have left my shoes on the beach. Satish tells me he will go get them the next day.
(...)
To your question about what happened to Natalee, I answer you that I don’t know. If Deepak and Satish don’t know what happened to Natalee, then I don’t know it either.
The police confronts me with Freddy’s statement from yesterday. I say that my mother had told me that Freddy had phoned her and made a statement. Freddy declares that I already had told him the lied Holiday Inn story in Monday May 30th and that on Tuesday May 31st I had told that the three of us together left her on the beach.
I stated:
I told Freddy the HI story on Wednesday June 1st at my house. Satish and Deepak were present. I told Freddy the real story on June 1 in the afternoon at my house. You are informing me that Freddy has stated that I told him the first story on May 30th 2005 in the afternoon. In response to your question if that is the truth, I answer you that this could be true. You are informing me that Freddy is stating that I told him Natalee went unconscious several times on the way to the beach of the Marriott Hotel. That she at a certain moment did not regain consciousness and that we have left her on the beach. I don't know what to answer to this, because according to me, I did not tell the story to Freddy this way.
That Freddy has stated that we did not know what to do when she did not recover and that we then left her on the beach and that I left my sport shoes behind, that is not correct. This did not happen this way. I have left my sport shoes at the Marriott beach. I think Freddy did not correctly understand what I told him.
(...)
Two additional notes:
1) Joran mentions Satish above but I guess he meant Deepak. Just a Freudian typo.
2) There are two open conflicts between Joran and the Kalpoes. The most famous one is about the question whether or not Satish picked him up, but a less 'famous' one is about whether or not they stopped at Joran's house before driving to the beach/lighthouse. A crazy thought: suppose they did first drive to Joran's house, could it be that the muffler of the Honda made so much noise that it woke up Val and made him crawl behind the PC around 2:30 on that school's night?
FJ
DottyFriday, August 7, 2009 03:40 PM
Just like the durn "elf uhr". It does make sense. It could also be that whomever had helped Joran had 2 dogs.
JanFriday, August 7, 2009 03:54 PM
Thanks so much Fierljepper. I am presently "out of pocket," and will be so for a little while but I appreciated all you thoughts and improvements and additions and will include them, in time. All very very interesting for sure. It is like one tiny little light about something has been shed on the mysterious police interrogations.
crimejunkieFriday, August 7, 2009 10:20 PM
I have no idea why these PV's have always been a curious subject to me. It is quite revealing reading them in the improved format. People should read Paulus's and you can clearly see how some one or something is on their minds when they question him. It just seems like a witch hunt. Wasn't that right after Beth went to his house? It all seems very curious.
RizzoSunday, August 9, 2009 10:53 AM
Does anyone have an answer (Polemic,Jan, FJ, Dotty) or anyone else have an answer for where these PV's actually came from? Why only certain ones were leaked? What about the rest of them? Are we to believe what they say? Basically I have always been puzzled thinking that there have to be so many other statements that were taken but we only see a few and reading them have seen that even certain sections of these are missing. Just appears that they (and who is they) only wanted parts of the puzzle given but many key pieces are missing. Maybe that is why so many argue and still seem confused.
Just an observation and a question.
DottyMonday, August 10, 2009 11:50 PM
Rizzo, who knows for sure anymore where the PV's came from. In the beginning
when Beth was waving some around, those were said to have come from Jossy, and from
ALE garbage. That's poster speculation imo. Then a set of others were released again in 2006 I believe and those were said to have been the PV's Joran gave Garrison
who was going to do Joran's book. IMO, the PV's went from Garrison to Natalee's family
who released them to blog forums.
Joran, Deepak and Satish must have copies of the remaining PV's.
You speak of key pieces which were not leaked, my first guess would be those
key pieces might be crucial if there was to be a trial and in that case then the three main suspects shouldn't have them either. Neither then should we posters have
them.
I have also read that some PV's were used as interrogation tools only and that
the info was incorrect on them. Says who? Posters again.
Mos made some pretty strong statements in one pressor regarding Joran and his
helpers, after which Mos begins backtracking and stuttering and backing down.
One has to question why.
PolemicTuesday, August 11, 2009 03:36 AM
to Dotty...
That is a very good explanation about where the PV's came from. The best I have seen. Well done. Jan, that info should be incorporated into the book as a sort of an intro to the PV's. Can anyone add to what "Dotty." posted?
DottyTuesday, August 11, 2009 04:36 AM
This is apparently one that Beth had in her possession:
From August 15/05 Rita Cosby
<snip>
And joining me now from Aruba, Eduardo Mansur with the “Diario” newspaper. Eduardo, how did you get this document, to begin with?
EDUARDO MANSUR, “DIARIO”: OK, outside of the newspaper, we have a mailbox that people bring us all kinds of information, and they dropped it in there.
COSBY: Do you believe it‘s credible? Do you believe it‘s legitimate?
MANSUR: Oh, yes. It‘s got signatures of four detectives, whom I know, so we know it‘s credible.
COSBY: Why did you think it was important to publish it?
MANSUR: Sorry? I couldn‘t hear you.
COSBY: Why did you think it was important to publish it, to release it right now?
MANSUR: Well, because of what Joran says in the declaration, that he thinks that Deepak raped and killed Natalee.
<snip>
JanTuesday, August 11, 2009 11:39 AM
These are great suggestions and ideas. I will be adding them to my book the next chance that I have. These types of thoughts and suggestions are very helpful.
Actually this is what I was hoping for when I first put the book on line. One of the nice features of an online book, you can constantly update and make changes.
Thanks very much.
JanWednesday, August 12, 2009 06:48 PM
I have been giving these statements much thought over the last few days while in Aruba, as certainly the case really comes home again, especially trying to tell the details to my family who has always had a "limited," interest.
The statements released were really just the ones which had already been made public on line (mainly to the press). There honestly are no smoking guns in them. They are interesting reading, in my opinion, especially done in the new way, as they do explain exactly what was on the minds of the "three," and how and when they formulated ideas to present. And, of course, we can see how they turned on each other.
I am told that there are many, many other statements which really have much more block-buster information in them. Of course, these sit in the files of law enforcement and I doubt seriously that either family has seen them, nor do I believe the suspects have either.
Which, of course, is as it should be.
42)
A-non
Location: over here
Wednesday, August 5, 2009 06:58 PM
This is a comment about Chapter 1, page 5, concerning Carla Caccavale, the family spokesperson. Knowing the family for less than a week and never having known Natalee, I find it rather humorous she would speak of Natalee's character with such emphasis. Carla also misspoke when she said Natalee had a perfect 4.0 average when that is not true. It was only 4.0, when weighted, which is not how GPAs are referred. She did not sound her best in that interview for sure.
MollyThursday, August 6, 2009 10:12 AM
Seems like this was the point of the whole first chapter, that the word needed to be out right away that Natalee was Miss Perfect (I believe there is even an article by that name) and that if the girl that was missing was perfect, with good grades and a non drinker and the best friend to all, she would be more likely to get media coverage. After the "Runaway Bride," it makes a lot of sense. For once the media at least tried to do the right thing.
DottyFriday, August 7, 2009 03:36 PM
It didn't sound like that to me at all. I have seen locally that LE will drag
their feet on a "runaway"/"missing" person if that person had a record of
leaving the family home for days at a time. They have been more apt to begin
searching within the 48 hours if the person had no history. That doesn't go to say that
I mean that Natalee had a history and they were covering up. What I am saying
is that the family may have polished Natalee's character to give the ALE a
push b/c this was unusual behaviour and they feared ill will had come to her.
RizzoSunday, August 9, 2009 11:05 AM
Well it certainly did seem like the family made a concerted effort to make Natalee as a perfect girl. Seriously, if there is one thing I remember from those early interviews from her friends it was how popular and wonderful and she was everybodies friend. Then I actually read later on that most of her close friends were not on the trip and she was more of an onlooker with this group. It all in hindsight seems a little strange. I suppose that the media would not have been interested in a real normal moderately popular and average looking girl gone missing but it just all seems now a little off. I felt Chapter 1 gave a better more realistic portrayal of what and who she was. All of the hype didn't manage to pull off a discovery though of what happened. Not even the family middle of the night disturbance pulled off anything.
DottyMonday, August 10, 2009 11:59 PM
Well, I am not invested in either side and I am with the girl...Natalee that is.
What I saw from both sides of the case is very similar. Joran's family and friends boosted him to sainthood, just as much as Natalee's family and friends did for Natalee
The fact that Beth did it more and louder doesn't change anything at all.
Anita portrayed Joran as a person I don't see him as either.
lindaThursday, August 13, 2009 11:45 AM
I am not a supporter of either side but these kids were pretty young, both of them. It was at the age that most parents are still grasping and trying to understand what their offspring are all about. Many parents believe one thing, the side they nurtured from birth and what they are hoping and wanting their sons and daughters to become. I think both moms were a bit off with reality but doubt either can be blamed for that error.
DottySunday, August 16, 2009 09:07 PM
I agree Linda; that's why I would never be broadcasting or letting myself be interviewed stating how wonderful my kids are. I have always been of the thought that what other kids could do,(good or bad) mine could as well and never put them on a pedastal above anyone else. Whether parents are still grapling over what they expect of their kids, or what they see their kids as...a pinch of reality doesn't hurt. I don't blame them, however all that baloney is what has kept this case going in the direction it is now, imo. Anyone not familiar with the case, reading up on the forums would shake their heads in utter disbelief.
JanSunday, August 16, 2009 11:05 PM
Talk about utter disbelief - I have to share a story that happened today at the San Juan Airport. My husband had bought a hat that had Aruba on it and this nice man asked us if we had been there. We said yes, on the cruise and I said I had been a couple other times.
The man said "oh I love Aruba, have been there many times." Then he said it was too bad that girl from Seattle went missing from there a few years back. I said, to him he must mean from Alabama? And that man said, oh no I am sure she was from Seattle because I am from Seattle and I know what I am talking about! My husband looked at me and was kinda dumbstruck - and I just said wow that was too bad. We walked away and of course my whole family had over heard and they were "did a girl go missing in Aruba from Seattle too?" And I said, well I think I would know if she had.
So it just goes to show how badly confused people can be about this case, and how very adamant they can be in their confusion.
But if anyone knows of a girl that went missing in Aruba from Seattle please let me know?
I honestly don't think he meant Amy Bradley either, because the trip he was describing was exactly like Natalee's.
DottyMonday, August 17, 2009 10:52 AM
Well that's a man ... wrong and very sure of himself, lol.
missjollyTuesday, August 18, 2009 10:21 AM
Great story and I am sure it must have taken great restraint to not give a Holloway Cliff Note version of the case to this poor misguided person.
Rocky2Tuesday, August 18, 2009 05:24 PM
Just found this book recently and I must say Chapter 1 is quite a beginning. Sure makes one wonder how much of this story was influenced by the media and maybe even the family.
FlusterFriday, December 18, 2009 07:15 PM
That's how books come about, from outside influence. Take for example Joran's book. His influence was blog gossip when he wrote about Natalee...re: being pregnant, plus other gossip that was also turned into a Documentary for heaven's sake.
41)
Fierljepper
Location: NL
Wednesday, August 5, 2009 01:10 PM
Just to summarize the main ingredients I currently believe should be put into the 'stew of truth'. Rationales for using these ingredients are all in this comment section. The proof is in the eating of course and I hope that consumption will spark off unexpected ideas that connect all dots.
* Joran and Natalee were dropped off at the Moomba beach around 1:40/50.
* The Kalpoes went home and stayed home that night.
* Joran did not have the capacity, guts or tools to make a body vanish forever from Aruba all by himself.
* He did not make any other cell phone calls than the 8-minute chat with Deepak at 2:26.
* He must have met some people who helped him within (barefoot) walking distance from the Moomba beach.
* These helpers must have been motivated to take control of Natalee and to dispose off her body later.
* Joran was dropped off by car at his house by his helpers and he did not walk home barefoot (i.e. he lied to Deepak).
* Joran left Natalee alive but 'passed out' in the hands of the helpers.
* Joran was therefore still in a reasonably positive/optimistic shape on May 30th (all day, although a bit tired).
* Joran did meet Freddy on May 30th afternoon and did tell him the HI-"lie" since he believed Natalee would be there.
* He only started to panick when he learned around 2AM May 31st that Natalee had gone missing.
Who dares (easy one for Polemic, since 'crack house' essay scores very high)?
crimejunkieWednesday, August 5, 2009 05:24 PM
Not bad FJ. Of course you are assuming that they even went to the beach at all. It is very possible that they were dropped off right at some drug house and the whole beach story is just a total made up piece of fantasy that sounds better than getting high in a crack house or whatever they call these places. That being the case then the K boys would know too that what Joran spun after the Holiday Inn story became a sham was not the least bit possible.
One thing for sure all of this seems much more likely than other crazy ideas proposed many other places.
As far as a cover up. I do wonder what ALE or the higher ups in government might know about what really happened. So many think that Aruba has been covering for Joran, I cannot see any country covering for a kid that has no importance and neither does his family. But I can see some people covering up for Drug Dealers.
Fernando1981Wednesday, August 5, 2009 11:02 PM
Yes, Fierljepper, I'm with you. That's a good scenario. And, I also agree with crimejunkie that I don't think she was left on the beach, if for no other reason than Joran would have been out of character to tell the truth there. I think he picked the beach and that section of beach to form his last and final lie as one that would stick, because there were no cameras there. And the main reason was that he needed a location other than the real place because there was no way he could reveal that and hope to stay healthy. The drug place makes the most sense where it all went down. I have been to Aruba and I know that area around the hotels and for sure there are locations where drugs are sold and where people relax and smoke and in some case snort (and wild dancing and music in some). They are often just plain residences and sometimes called "after hours" clubs. They can be in actual bars or cafes or in homes. Ask any Aruban about the after hours places... the word gets out where one or two will be any night... it changes... they are moving targets (where they are one night is not he same place as the next). The cops know about them, beach bums know about them, hotel bell boys know about them. Really, who doesn't?
And let me tell you, you don't mess with the crime bosses down there, everyone knows that too. You'll end up just gone.
PolemicThursday, August 6, 2009 11:35 AM
What more could I say? I think all that summarizes it well.
1. Didn't happen at the beach dropoff theory - substantiated by lack of any witnesses saying that the couple was seen there. Lots of tourists walk that beach, certainly until 2:30 or 3:00. It's never totally empty. Plus, Joran didn't show a record of calling anyone for help who could have handled a pickup of a girl in a coma.
2. Help had to be equipped - not just anyone could have gotten a dead person out of view so completely "without a trace," nor would they have had the motivation, Drug lords could and would have had all the reasons. There is a smarmy underbelly in Aruba, which is one of the good arguments for legalization. Aruba is a center (or depot) for drugs on their way to the US and other locations (that's why that DEA guy was there). Those guys would not have wanted the eyes of a getting-hotter-by-the-minute media event turned in their direction.
3. The Crackouse theory plausibility - this was published in various iterations on several boards and finally on Scrux within the first month of the incident. Posters (supporting the family) dismissed it for one simple reason; Natalee would never do drugs. But, in fact, every kid who does drugs the first time has never done them before(and their parents would swear they wouldn't ever).
4. Happened on the beach theory - substantiated by the "told in confidence" story explained by Joran in the DeVries video. Makes sense that Joran might have gotten drugs earlier to make the evening fun (or they might have walked over to a connection and then taken them back to the beach). In fact, Natalee might have engaged him to buy some. I have heard many a girl say... "I wanna get high, can you score something?" So, if a girl goes comatose in your presence after doing drugs which you just acquired, "who are you gonna call?" The only guys who would know they might be nailed for the responsibility.
5. Joran and the Holiday Inn story - if she goes into the coma at adrug house or if the drug sellers come to the beach at Joran's request (but, no phone call makes that difficult to believe) it makes sense they might say, "After she sleeps it off, we'll drop her at her hotel." If you're party guy, you've seen many a girl "sleep one off." As Fierljepper says, that would account for Joran's relaxed attitude the next day, even bragging that he nailed her. If he knew she was going to be missing, he wouldn't have been talking and he wouldn't have been so relaxed about it all.
----
I think this solves it (as best as can be done without more info). If your primary mission is to preserve the memory and reputation of Natalee (or Joran), then, no, this can't be your answer. But, if you are just a true crime observer without bias, this is the most logical possibility.
FierljepperThursday, August 6, 2009 01:22 PM
It's an attractive scenario indeed, Polemic.
There's one scenario that has kept bubbling in the back of my mind, so let me try to make it explicit by tweaking only a few premises and leaving the gist of the "crack house" scenario intact. Bit of doing a 180, but interested in your thoughts:
* Joran and Natalee were dropped off at the Moomba beach around 1:40/50.
* The Kalpoes went home and stayed home that night.
* Joran left Natalee 'asleep' on the beach.
* Joran walked home barefoot (i.e. he told the truth to Deepak in the 8-minute chat with Deepak at 2:26).
* Natalee encountered other people who invited her to a crack house. Her intoxicated state and desire to give the relaxed Aruba holiday one final stretch, made her join them.
* The crack house people were motivated to take control of a drugs coma-ed Natalee and also to dispose off her body later.
* Joran was therefore still in a reasonably positive/optimistic shape on May 30th (all day, although a bit tired).
* Joran did meet Freddy on May 30th afternoon and did tell him the HI-"lie" since he believed Natalee would be there by then.
* He only started to panick when he learned around 2AM May 31st that Natalee had gone missing and he was the one who left her there all by herself.
In this scenario we still have a relaxed and bragging Joran on May 30th. He has been totally irresponsible, but he hasn't done anything unlawful. Nothing to worry about for him. She probably just walked to the HI in very disappointed mood that Joran left her, but... ...in reality she didn't make it to the HI since she encountered others and teamed up with them to end in a crack house (could even have been 1 or 2 blokes from the MB-group). Natalee passes out. Crack house people tell them not to worry, they'll handle the rest. Same story onwards including Beth causing lots of noise around the case and by doing so ironically helping to seal her fate. It would be interesting to know how the family was steered towards the crack houses. Did this come from ALE or were there some 'wrapped up' carefully phrased hints coming from the MB community back home where some blokes' conscience started to itch...?
And then Joran's stupid lies to protect his gentleman's image, turned him into the ideal scape goat for Beth and the media. Everybody else just had to keep there heads down...
If I had to chose between Natalee or Joran using drugs that night and being tempted to visit a crack house, I'd opt for Natalee to be most inclined to try some. For Joran (who smokes pot today, I know, must have had a first try one day), we have none of his friends from those days (not even his very best: Freddy) stating that Joran was on drugs or visited these crack houses. Joran was after sex that night, satisfying his male needs on a female "object" without even remembering her name. There's no indication she was interested in drugs that night.
FierljepperThursday, August 6, 2009 01:24 PM
She=he in the last sentence.
fierljepperFriday, August 7, 2009 10:38 AM
Need to correct myself here. There is a clear indication that Joran did (soft) drugs those days:
P191 of his book. Interrogation June 29th, 2005:
You ask me whether I have smoked marihuana: I have indeed smoked a marihuana cigarette. You inform me that many people have stated that Deepak sells XTC pills. I’ve never seen Deepak sell XTC-pills. I also have never heard that before. I more and more get the feeling that the girl is alive, since she would have been found already a long time ago.
Another point in favor of the 'crack house' scenario.
FierljepperFriday, August 7, 2009 01:56 PM
And another clear indication that Joran used marihuana:
P225 of his book from his diary on August 11th, 2005 in the KIA:
From my diary:
At 07:00AM I’m woken up for a drugs test. I’m shocked and refuse. I’ve no idea why they want this and for what purpose they’re going to use it. At 09:00AM they come back and tell me that if I refuse the test I would receive severe detention for a full month. I say: “Call my lawyer. If he says it’s ok, that I’ll do it.” Anthony says: “You can do it. It’s something from the KIA itself and has nothing to do with your case.” Cell mates quickly provide me with a little bag of urine from someone who had never ‘blowed’ before. In front of a guard I need to pull the little bag out of my zipper en deposit the content into a small container. I’m very nervous, but I manage to do it. Results are negative. Only two people in the youth department of the KIA received severe detention for the use of marihuana, the rest all tested negatively since they used the urine of the boy that had never ‘blowed”.
Yet another point in favor of the 'crack house' scenario.
lindaThursday, August 13, 2009 11:48 AM
FJ have you ever come up with a senario that leave Joran and the Kalpoes completely out of this? Joran left her on the beach ... and then it goes on from there?
Polemic have you?
Has Joran always been an integral part of all you working theories?
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Friday, March 5, 2010 07:37 AM
It's no big deal, has been happening for 4 1/2 years constantly.
so many say that over and over but those that say it never do say goodbye, as this case must be an addiction for many.
